Are caste-based quotas a curse on India? IBNLive readers discussed this Sagarika Ghose, Senior Editor,CNN-IBN, in live chat session on Monday, June 4.
Here we reproduce the entire chat with no editorial touch at all:-
Deepesh: Do you think that Indian political parties can ever look beyond caste and vote bank based politics?
Sagarika Ghose: If you look at BSP victory in UP, you'll see how illuminating its transformation has been. From being an out and out Brahmin hating party, it has now gone out of its way to accommodate all castes and create a philosophy of "sarvajan samaj." Its ideology has become one of ideology of the poor and an ideology of class rather than purely an ideology of caste so there is hope for the future. Elections can't be won only on the basis of a single caste and a caste coalition is necessary for future victory. That was the recipe of the congress in the post independence years.
VG: Hi Sagarika, I think whole people of India should have a mindset in opposing reservation. If people start fighting for reservation, politicians will capitalise on it and there will be no end to the reservation. Even Dr Ambedkar was of the opinion that reservation should be for a short span of time. Is 60 yrs not a short span of time? Why not a government tries to give free education to all the deprived people till 12th standard and elevate them so that they can compete with others. If you are given the task bring Indian Cricket team to the level of Australia, you are given 2 options:
1. Train them well in batting, bowling, fielding etc and bring them to level of Australia
2. Set some new rules in cricket. If Indian scores 2 runs, it should be counted as 4. There will be no LBW for Indians. Indians can play 60 overs where as Australians should play only 30 overs. I think if our politicians are given the task, they will choose only option 2 (which is comparable to the reservation that is prevailing in the country today).
Sagarika Ghose: I have an interesting answer for you here. You know many Dalit scholars say that our sports teams should be aggressively Dalitised. that is, cricketers, athletes etc should all be drawn from Dalit communities. After all, they say a Brahmin cannot even make himself a cup of tea and if you are so unused to physical labour, how will you throw a javelin or run the 100meters? Our civilisation has always rewarded the lazy: those who claimed to be "superior" just because of birth. No wonder the backlash is so violent and so persistent.
Irfan: Hi Sagarika, What do you think about this Gurjar-Meena debate, is this Democracy or "Castocracy" your view please?
Sagarika Ghose: The tragedy is that those groups who actually need reservations, who are truly deprived, simply do not have the power or the muscle to organise such agitations. This dispute makes a mockery of the entire label of "backwardness". Do backward communities have the power to hold urban life to hostage to this extent? I don't think so. Just shows how many illegitimate claims there are to the identity of "backward caste". Governments are at a loss. Having come to power on the basis of caste identities, they can't jump off the tiger.
Amit: Should not the entire reservation system be abolished?
Sagarika Ghose: No politician will do that for far of committing political suicide.
Anju Chandel: Hi Sagarika. In my opinion this entire business of Reservations (Quotas) in various fields should be abolished altogether as we have seen no significant benefits coming out of this system for the "reserved" people it was supposed to uplift socio-economically. Rather this Quota policy is further dividing the country and deepening the caste system in our society. The citizens of India should instead "fight" for the initiation of Affirmative Actions by the Government for the economically backward sections of our society irrespective of caste, creed, colour, especially in education, which would make them competent and provide them with opportunities to compete with the better ones. Does it make sense to you?
Sagarika Ghose: Sure, as I've answered before, economic criteria are the most important measure of backwardness but I also believe that certain castes are more deprived than others. We do need an intelligent system of affirmative action, but the important thing to remember is, there's nothing to fear. Its not as if upper castes will have to jump into the Arabian Sea if quotas are given. Just that the government needs to make sure more and more opportunities are constantly created.
Nish: Travel 200 years into the future. Do you think we'll still struggle with caste issues or a big revolution can do it for Casteless India?
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Sagarika Ghose: This question has agitated many for a long time: why has a country like India not had a revolution? Why have we not had a situation where the poor simply pick up the gun and begin a violent protest to overthrow the rich? I think it hasn’t happened in India precisely because we are so divided into castes so perhaps that’s a blessing. Ambedkar said “We need to become a social democracy before we become a political democracy and ask yourself the question: are we a social democracy? Why do we live according to so many hierarchies of big people and small people? Why does our traditional text say that Brahmins came from the head and Shudras from the foot? Which country in the world has the concept of "jhootha" or "choo" and "achoot". The caste system is not only a system of social organisation, its also a mental state of mind and I think before we have a casteless society we need a complete mental and psychological change. There's no need to be alarmist either there are plenty of opportunities around for everybody in a liberalising economy. we need to expand our mental horizons, to include not just merit but also social justice.
Rajat Khanna: Why is everyone blaming Raje for this? Have we begun to generally "accept" that people will and should resort to violence for every small grouse? Isn't the Sonia regime responsible for re-igniting this whole caste fight to begin with?
Sagarika Ghose: The UPA government has certainly a lot to answer for in once again unleashing the monster of caste-based reservations and the entire 27 per cent OBC quota. The government has earned the wrath of the apex court for its actions and now that all laws are subject to judicial review, even those in the 9th schedule, the OBC quota may even be struck down by the courts! As for the UPA: is it United, it is Progressive, is it even an Alliance?
Mohd Zaigham Khan: Hi Sagarika, in my opinion reservation criteria should not be on the basis of cast but economical condition. Before we talk about the reservation the way they are being demanded is most condemnable, as no one should be allowed to restore to violence and subject the people of the country to hardship. Those who are restoring to violence should be dealt with iron hands before considering their demands.
Sagarika Ghose: The scale pf protests are indeed surprising. They see very well organised and strategised. There is no excuse for violence, but on the other hand, do peaceful agitations work in India? I don’t know.
Deepak: Hi Sagarika, How do you feel about the current agitations that is in a process of becoming a nation wide rage. Don’t you think that such baseless agitations should be dealt with utmost strictness, because a loose reaction can result in several of such situations?
Sagarika Ghose: The prime minister made an interesting speech at the CII recently where he said that unless the rich become more generous, unless corporates have greater social responsibility, unless rich people stop showing off their wealth, there will be more and more "social unrest". The PM's words were almost prophetic! The point is, that economic reforms are not enough. They are urgently needed but they must be accompanied with social reform, political reform and administrative reform unless more and more services are delivered to the people, unless opportunities are provided and life is made better at the grass roots, there will be more protests of this kind. I have a solution: along with special economic zones, the government should create special social welfare zones, where a certain location is given facilities and welfare measures.
Santosh Bhushan: Why should family of Lalu Yadav, Mayawati, Ramvilas Paswan or Mulayam Singh should get reservation ? There are more than enough people who are below the starvation line.
Sagarika Ghose: This is what the SUpreme court defines as the creamy layer. That is any relative, or second generation of a reserved category person who should not be seeking reservations on the basis of caste status.
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KS: India is world\'s only place where Backwardness sells at a premium. Some achievement after 60 years of independence. Ironically, this mess could well result in few good things. 1. It might make senior political leaders sit up and take notice of the mayhem their vote bank policies have created. 2. Supreme Court will have something substantial to say to Arjun Singh when review petition comes up for hearing about 27% reservation in IIMs.
Sagarika Ghose: We now have a "race to the bottom." earlier we had the process of "sanskritisation" where every caste wanted to rise in its ritual status but now every caste will want to go as far down as possible perhaps this is democracy.
RS: Caste based reservations can be avoided. Instead, reservations based on economic status can be enforced. This plus reservation for students from rural places, irrespective of caste can be given. What's your take on this?
Sagarika Ghose: Social scientists have come up with many imaginative schemes to measure backwardness. Yogendra Yadav and Satish Deshpande have a scheme where they have come up with a system of grades that is measuring a candidate on the basis of many types of backwardness: regional, gender, income and caste. They have recommended allotting marks to each category so that a more accurate measure is made of how "backward" an individual actually is.
KHS: This is the first of a kind violent protest because of Quota, don\'t you think, in coming days, it can be lot more than this ? By taking leaf out of book of Gurjars, many people may do the same.
Sagarika Ghose: Absolutely, they might. In fact this agitation shows the limits of the OBC quota. The government has been so gung ho about the OBC quota saying it will solve everything and that it would win votes. But in fact here is a case where the Gurjars don't want to be OBCs at all! Instead they want to be STs. So who is the OBC quota intended for??
Ravinder: In 21st century is this required and how can anyone call themselves tribe when they live in cities and towns.
Sagarika Ghose: Great point! I totally agree. Gurjars are certainly not a tribe. But then the Meenas aren’t either and yet they claim ST status.
Sakthi: It’s blessing for politicians and the OBC\'s but a curse of Brahmins and other forward castes. The political skills are greatly in demand to manage the caste related reservation. Probably the northern political leaders can look at the history of administering reservations from Tamil Nadu political leaders/administrations. Your comment.
Sagarika Ghose: The Bahujan Samaj along with SC and ST are the majority in India and they have been done a historical injustice. They have been denied english education, denied skills and denied opportunities. let me ask you a counter question: Who's skills are more needed in a society, the plumber and electrician or the writer of books? In my opinion, plumbers, electricians, tillers of the soil, barbers, carpenters, these are the so-called "productive castes" of our country and they need there due urgently. A brahmin will get his due too provided he has a skill to contribute. Today, if you don’t have a skill you can’t rely on simply caste status, Brahmin, OBC or ST.
Raghavendra R Pawar: Hi Sagarika Are you accepting the way Vasundara Raje handling the Gurjar issue?
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Sagarika Ghose: I think Vasundhara Raje's handling of the crisis has been utterly disastrous. All I want to say is Maharani jago!. She should have been right there in Dausa with the suffering people, making some sort of statement about how much she cares for them there was no attempt to control the law and order situation in the first 24 hours. The police seemed to have melted away. Perahsp Ms Raje spends too much time abroad or trying to get investment and tourism for her state, rather than staying in touch wit her people.
Ashish M: Do you feel anti reservation campaign by Youth For Equality could be more effective if it had been more aggressive like the one by these Gurjar.
Sagarika Ghose: Haha! good one. NO, I don’t think any decent progressive movement should be burning buses and throwing stones.
Aado: Hi, I am currently in South Korea as a research intern. Ever since I have come here, almost every Korean including my Professor has asked me about the Caste System in India. It seems like the Korean school curriculum covers this little fact about majestic India. And I really feel ashamed to face these questions. I am almost tired explaining to them how caste based reservations are destroying the educational system in India, and how people are fighting wars just to get enlisted as a lower caste. How do I deal with this?
Sagarika Ghose: You should say that India is a country of severe social and material inequalities and we are trying our best to secure opportunities for all. At this moment, liberalisation is in its infancy and privatisation still has not taken off fully. Once private capital is invited into education, we will see many more opportunities for people. Caste politics is not destroying education; instead standards are falling on their own. I am often shocked to find how many Indian young people are linguistic cripples: they don't seem to know any language and they cant think. Education reform is urgently needed but fall in standards may not be due to caste quotas.
Roshni: Hi madam, do you think that if the government scraps caste based reservation completely and has reservation only for the poor and economically deprived then the social and caste based divide would be repaired?
Sagarika Ghose: As the supreme court said in its reply to the government: unless and until it is determined by the centre, who is socially and economically backward, this act cannot really be given effect." so even the Supreme Court agrees with you!
Manish: You simply said in one of the answer that there must be many IITs and IIMs to solve the problem. I think you are not familiar with these institutes. Madam people crave for these institutes because of highly paid jobs being offered to students there and companies make these offers not because of infrastructure or education there but because they know that students there have qualified tough test entrance tests now if you open 100s of these institutes do you think corporates would still make beelines not at all they will visit only few ones and hence I don\'t think opening of many similar institutes will solve the problem.
Sagarika Ghose: I disagree completely. I think it’s a matter of demand and supply. Why is there such a race to get into these centres of excellence? Simply because there are so few. If there were more centres of excellence, with the same standards as the IITs and IIMs, corporates would certainly recruit. I studied at Oxford University in England. But that does not mean that recruitment in England only happens at Oxford and Cambridge, instead universities of SSES, Warwickshire, York, all have equal recruitments happening from their campus.
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Rishabdev Singh: Hi Sagarika, I am from Rajasthan and utterly condemn the situation that has arisen due to the Gurjar Meena face off and their individual demands. The times when these reservations were introduced there was a stigma attached, which is why no body wanted to get themselves recognised with the SC or an ST Tag. Today we are proudly demanding ourselves to be associated with any of the tags as long as it benefits us. The stigma definitely has waned down which was primarily the purpose of reservation system when it was initiated. But with the introduction of OBC and now EBC(Economically Backward Caste), Minority it has become a tool in the hands of the politicians who are using to garner votes for themselves and for their parties. It is highly shameful that their are no national leaders today but are either religious, caste or community leaders and their public interest is only confined to their Samaj (Caste) interest. A very unfortunate outcome of a system started with a noble purpose. Where has the ideal of first comes the country gone. Yes I beleive that the reservations are just a political tool, which will lead the country to Catastrophe in time to come.
Sagarika Ghose: The problem is just not being addressed in a clear way by the government and the SC. we need clear guidelines on who can be a ST and who cannot be. There is enough evidence to show that majority of rural households who are deprived are OBCs and STs but now the National commission for backward classes must review the entire OBC SC ST categorisations on an urgent basis. And whatever the decisions are, politicians have to stop playing politics and tackle law and order on a war footing.
Kunal: Hi. I stay in Amsterdam and we were having a chat on Friday evening about how the economy of India is doing well and how we are going to be the next big economic power. Until my boss a Polish man brought out the current caste war going on in Rajasthan. He knew about it because he had to cancel his planned trip to the tourist state. I was at great loss of words to explain the phenomenon and why everyone wants to be a part of the "prestigious" SC/ST quota. My question is with this politically infused division of the country and the furthering of the caste divide by the present government do we really stand a chance in global arena or is it just a hog wash?
Sagarika Ghose: I don’t think reservations are necessarily destroying our global competitiveness. We are a highly talented competitive society and I am happy to say that employers will simply not employ nor will hospitals engage any professional who does not make the cut. What is needed is mass English language education in India so every caste and community is equally empowered. If you look at the Charams and Jatavs in the sc category, many are very talented and hardworking. The fact is the upper castes have monopolised the system for too long.
R. Ganesan: No one really understood the objective of Dr B R Amebdkar's initiative in extending the reservation to SCs and STs. He himself set the target time of 10 or 15 years only from the date of Constitution came into being. It is only the power-mongered politicians included one caste or other for their own benefits and strictly for down trodden people in lower strata. In the present globalisation, only meritorious people will tackle the things and we should develop the meritorious in all the communities irrespective of SCs and STs. And must put an end to Reservation? What did you say, Ms Sagarika?
Sagarika Ghose: Tamil Nadu has 69 per cent reservations has this destroyed merit? Not really. Kerala on the hand has universal primary and secondary education and at least can fill up its SC ST quotas, which states like UP can't. The rise of the BSP occurred because there was an entire class of Dalit civil servants created by reservations, reservations has created a Dalit middle class, in fact on the other hand 55 per cent Brahmins live below the poverty line and in Andhra the largest percentage of Brahmins are employed as domestic servants the reservation picture is a very complex one.
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Sandeep Aggarwal: Hi Sagarika, I just want to know if there are backward classes in European/American countries as well and do they too have reservation for them?
Sagarika Ghose: There certainly is affirmative action legislation in America for African Americans. This too is very controversial as there have been many cases filed that affirmative action laws were becoming discriminatory towards the majority.
Rajdeep: Hi Sagarika! Is caste-based reservation the panacea for all woes of backwardness in India? Do you really think in India (corporate and educational sectors) people are getting discriminated on based of their caste status? Forget about the Hindu scriptures and writings in modern India where is the place of caste. In last 30 yrs of life I have never seen any one getting discriminated based on caste nor I was discriminated. Then why this caste based reservation. Isn't time ripe for a scientific study and implementation of reservation rather than this hypocrisy in the name of votes?
Sagarika Ghose: The Supreme Court has stayed the 27 per cent OBC quota on purely these grounds, that first the government has to provide a definition on who exactly are the OBCs and why should they be given reservations. In the Indra Sawhney case reservations for the creamy layer were struck down, as such reservations were seen to be discrimination towards others. But then it would be aerculean task to undertake a caste census in India in 2007. Do we need to be reminded of our caste identities? But at the same time we do need affirmative action. Interesting to note that the politician who floated this entire OBC reservation balloon is a failed neta and would probably never win an election in his remaining life Arjun Singh.
Dips: Hi, whatever losses have been made during all these 6 days drama like putting buses on fire etc, would ultimately have to borne by a common man, more tax, more liabilities, how fair is this on part of a common man to have a burden like this for which they are not possible.
Sagarika Ghose: Don’t think any group has the right to damage public property and tax payers property in order to pursue their own sectional interests. But then how are they to get the attention of the powerful? I think this is the age of revolution in India. Whether the BSP or the Gurjars or the Naxals, all groups will increasingly become aggressive and vocal unless the brutal gap between rich and poor narrows down.
Ruben: Hi, do u think it is correct on part of Meenas to stop the Gurjars from given ST status when it been a long standing demand on part of the Gurjars?
Sagarika Ghose: The question is, do the Gurjars have the right to be a scheduled tribe? According to the constitution’s definition, they do not satisfy any of the criteria of a ST, that is they are not isolated, not shy of society, not removed from the Hindu mainstream. Their claim to being a tribe is a little weak. and the latest revelation is that the Meenas only got ST status because of a clerical error, because a "comma" was inadvertently inserted between Bhils and Meenas, instead of a full stop.
Biranchi N Acharya: The present caste based reservation is more dangerous than the caste system prevailed in India for centuries. The caste system was made as a division of work in the society where lower castes had been discriminated inhumanly. But the caste-based quota forcibly divides the present society for benefit of some opportunistic brokers of power corridor. This quota system do not help the deserving weaker sections of the people, rather creates platform for violent confrontation among sections weakening the integrity & harmony of the society. This is such a curse that will choke unity of the nation. Caste is never a class. We need reservation for oppressed class, poor class. Poor class does not have any caste, rather economical conditions is the only identity of the poor class. Reservation on economic condition is only solution but how it can happen?
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Sagarika Ghose: Here are some interesting statistics: in 2002, in Delhi university, out of 311 professors only 6 are Dalits in a study in 1996 out of 686 accredited journalists, 454 were upper caste, 232 did not carry caste names and there was not a single Dalit. What does that tell you about the continuing hold of the caste system in India?
Vijender: Hi Sagarika, won’t India lose the technical edge when everything will be decided by caste and religion?
Sagarika Ghose: There's no evidence of that. As long as a person is talented, whatever their caste they will do justice to their jobs. I think upper castes too need to think beyond the "merit" bogey there IS a need for social justice in our country, no doubt about that.
Rakesh Sood: Hi Sagarika, even if they give reservation do you think its reach to the person required the reservation actually.
Sagarika Ghose: That’s an interesting question, in fact the argument is that reservations don’t reach the truly deprived and the elite within a caste always captures the benefits, the so called creamy layer.
Vikas Malik: Hi mam, I would like to ask you that being from a particular means that you are deprived ad under privilege the sole motto of reservations to uplift the underprivileged people. Well I ask you the real needy people are those who can not afford 2 meals a day they don’t go to schools how come you give them job reservations. So do you think caste should be the basis or reservations?
Sagarika Ghose: I think caste is a fundamental axis of deprivation in our country. Higher education and top jobs are still monopolised by upper castes. There are very few Dalit billionaires, journalists or lawyers having said that I think reservations is only of limited value and at the end of the day supply of education and jobs have to be increased exponentially.
Shailendra: Hi Sagarika whose responsibility is it to resolve this crisis? State government or the Central government? We don’t see any coordination between the state and the central government in resolving this. The buck is not stopping anywhere. Weather it is Dera Sacha Sauda or Gurjar protest where is the home ministry and why is not responding.
Sagarika Ghose: It’s a tricky question. There is still no transparent policy on how a group should become an ST or move out of the OBC category. Vote banks are involved which is why the government is hesitating. To give ST status to the Rajasthan Gurjars might have a snowball effect.
Rajesh: Sagarika, do you think time has come for government of India to remove all the quotas and to emphasis to provide compulsory better education is give to all.
Sagarika Ghose: Yes, primary and secondary education has to be privatised and made available on an urgent basis to everyone. Why do we have only one AIIMS? We should have 200. Why only a handful of IITs and IIMs, there should be hundreds of such institutes. For this to happen, we need to encourage private investors into education. At the moment, demand is clearky greater than supply.
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Harshvardhan: Hi Sagarika i think we should scrap caste based reservation. There should be reservation only for economically backward people and that must be checked for time to time.
Sagarika Ghose: That’s been the demand by many for a long time. After all, the question is who needs reservations more a poor uneducated Brahmin or a rich highly educated OBC?
Seshu Kumar: If anybody is cognizant enough of their status in society and they fight for more reservations, I don’t think they are downtrodden, they can easily fight in the open market as good as the other castes. Are you with me?
Sagarika Ghose: Good point. If the Gujjars were so oppressed would they be able to organise such widespread protests? Unlikely.
Mukesh Kumar: Hello madam, do you agree the recent uprising is all because of political mismanagement and there seems to be a trend developing where society is resorting to violence to make or prove a point.
Sagarika Ghose: The present agitation by gujjars is interesting, because it shows a "race to the boom." Gujars are listed as OBCs in Rajasthan but clearly they do not want to be OBcs, as inter-OBC competition is too high. For example, a north Indian OBC stands no chance against a much better educated south Indian OBC. Even the SC category is very competitive with Chamars and Jatavs providing stiff competition to other SCs. To be a ST therefore means less competition. Sadly, ST status was promised in the 2003 assembly elections, which is why this agitation is taken place. yet the Rajasthan government took 3 days to respond, and 19 people were killed - shocking.
Bala: Hi Sagarika, I feel that Cast based reservations is really a curse in our country
Sagarika Ghose: I would like to quote the words of Fali Nariman, senior counsel, who said, untouchability may be abolished in law but it still exists in our minds. Don’t you think some affirmative action is needed in a society as brutally unequal as ours?
Ankush: Hi India was suppose to be a sovereign and a secular country where there is no bias related to the religion and cast. Isn’t the quota system against that? This is strictly against the constitution of Republic of India.
Sagarika Ghose: Hi Ankush, actually caste based quotas are legal and written into the constitution. But its worth remembering that even BR Ambedkar intended caste quotas to last only for a short period of time, after the depressed group had moved out of depressed status! Caste quotas were not meant to last indefinitely.
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